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Post by Offisder on Feb 3, 2015 12:42:50 GMT 10
recently returning from being interstate for a few years i am wondering if others have the same feeling about the state of Hockey in Victoria. I would like to creat a thread that is open to all to highlight the bad and the good things that are happening in Victoria. 1. The structure review and changes seems to be a big issue? 2. The Favourtism or special treatment of clubs? 3. The persistent grab for cash by HV eg overseas player permits.? 4. Having coaches follow through players at u14, u15and u18 level. 5. Appointment of parents as state coaches and selectors? 6.Players wearing state shorts, socks and walk out gear during trials and nothing been done about it? These are recent things that i have seen or been told about and i was wondering whether others have seen or experienced things that are just not quite right with the state of hockey in Victoria?
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Post by Onside on Feb 5, 2015 2:06:02 GMT 10
1. The structure review and changes seems to be a big issue? Im a fan of this years structure! Good to see HV realise they didn't get it right and are adjusting accordingly, I guess they are only Human. 2. The Favourtism or special treatment of clubs? What does this even mean? 4. Having coaches follow through players at u14, u15and u18 level. Regarding HV teams or Local club teams? Do you have an example? 5. Appointment of parents as state coaches and selectors? Im guessing this is referring to the Henderson's who's son was in the team and his father the coach. What an opportunity for these kids to receive coaching from a current Premier League coach who currently coaches arguably one of the best sides in the competition (including two Australian players and countless vikings players). I think it would be impossible for HV to find a coach even close to his standard let alone the difficulty of finding a good quality coach to take a week off work and travel interstate! If you are suggesting that his son was picked because he was invovled I'm guessing you didn't attend any of there games. I think he might even have been Captain or Vice Captain!
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Post by Really ? on Feb 7, 2015 11:38:23 GMT 10
Parents as selectors of the age group their children participate in is a complete conflict of interest. Two in the U15 girls. It discredits the team and the child of the parent. Yes a team would be lucky to have those who are good coaches but find another team. Bottom line.. just play good club hockey.
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Post by Selector on Feb 10, 2015 12:37:51 GMT 10
If we look at the present situation concerning selections players are charged $55 to nominate for a trial and they are only offered feedback for those players cut from the final round of trials. for the under 18 boys this was a revenue raising exercise of over $5500 and i believe the other age groups were similar. where did all this money go??? Those cut in Trial 1 and 2 were not offered or given feedback? ?? i cannot understand why Hockey Victoria felt this was appropriate? ? If we are to "grow the game" and are truly committed to improving hockey in Victoria then the selectors and HV need to offer all players cut immediate feedback. selectors have a duty to select the best players and if players are to be cut then they should be given appropriate immediate feedback so they know why they are cut and what they have to work on. Especially those players that were cut in Trial 1 and so were not academy players. Without immediate feedback speculation about favouritism, bias or nepotism can easily be implied. Come on Hockey Victoria - selectors need to be able to justify why players were cut - and offering no feedback means no justification. if selectors are doing their job they should have extensive notes on those in Trial 1 and 2 and why players didn't get through- if not we must then ask what other motives or interests were in play.
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Post by Peter Andre on Feb 10, 2015 16:06:27 GMT 10
Selecting is a very difficult task. Unfortunately the best candidates quite often don’t volunteer for these positions. I agree that having parents of player’s trialling as selectors is not ideal but this would usually only occur when no other suitable candidates come forward. The perception of bias with parents selecting their children is so obvious that I would doubt that any actual favouritism is shown for fear of complaints. I would suggest bigger favouritism is shown to players from the same clubs as selectors than parents selecting their children. This favouritism is less obvious to the wider hockey community and could only really be judged by people who attended all of the trials. Obviously this is unavoidable as we all belong to clubs. As a selector I doubt the parents would be allowed by the other selectors to show any favouritism to their children. I think we should probably give the other selectors more credit and have faith that they would ensure that nothing improper took place. After saying all that I strongly agree that parents shouldn’t be selectors but I don’t think it is as big an issue as it is being made out to be. If there were suitable selectors lined up and wanting to do the job and HV went with parents who were no more suitable, than this would be a problem; I think you will find this was not the case.
In the past players have been let through initial rounds as no selector has any notes on them as they simply have not been involved enough in the play. In the early rounds expecting selectors to have extensive and specific notes on the players who aren't moving past the first round is not realistic and smacks of someone who hasn’t really done much work as a selector. Selectors are looking for positives; reasons to put kids through. Players who are very involved in trials but have clear technical deficiencies will be cut and it is easy to provide specific feedback to these players. Those that are cut as they are clearly not in the best 18 and haven’t been able to get the ball or do anything noticeable with it are very difficult to take useful notes on.
I agree that $55 is a lot of money to be cut in round 1 and receive no feedback. If it wasn’t, it should have been clearly explained to everyone prior to them nominating that this was a possibility. All players are playing in competitions against their peers at junior, senior and maybe even school level. We all should have a rough idea of where we sit against those that are noticeably the strongest players in our age groups at our clubs and the competitions we play in prior to turning up at trials. This means we all should have an idea if there is a chance we may be sent home in the early rounds of trials. As I said $55 is a lot of money for no feedback, but going forward if HV flag that this may be the case prior to people nominating then I don’t believe people should be too upset. Clubs and schools are far better placed to provide feedback on areas that need improvement than selectors based simply on how often they see players. If players attend coaching clinics run by HV where the goal is development and not selecting a team than I am sure appropriate feedback would be provided.
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Post by Guest on Feb 10, 2015 16:25:09 GMT 10
The Under 15 boys had a beep test as part of the selection trials and I understand the under 15 girls did not. Does sport science theory suggest that male hockey players need to fit and it should be used as part of the selection criteria but female players do not?
The question could be asked was not running a fitness test by the Under 15 girls selectors more beneficial to the coaches’ children being selected or not? Parents know the strengths and weaknesses of their children, so they can run the trials ensuring that those weaknesses are not exposed.
Why aren’t fitness tests used across the board? At least there is a level of objectivity in one component.
Hockey Victoria is selecting players who need to play an 8 day tournament – fatigue would play a part in the team’s performance. Why is there not a set procedure backed by sports science/high performance coach best practice used to select players for each team, or do parents always know best?
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Post by peterandre on Feb 11, 2015 9:15:40 GMT 10
U15s doing a beep test as part of trials is unnecessary. There is enough time in their lead up once selected to get 15 year olds to an acceptable level of fitness to compete at a national championships. U15s are playing juniors, most of them are playing seniors and maybe some school hockey. If it is just used as a tool to see what level certain players are at than this is fine, but really only results at the extreme of either end should be taken into consideration. Suggesting that Parents who are selectors tailor the activities at trials to expose the strengths or hide the witnesses of their own children is ridiculous and making you sound bitter and delusional.
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Post by Not conflicted on Feb 11, 2015 11:36:31 GMT 10
1. Sporting bodies from Netball Australia, Cycling Australia, Rugby NSW, Surflifesaving Australia and the list goes on have strict guidelines about using parents as selectors-' It is deemed that parents are not suitable as selectors as it can be percieved as a conflict of interest or is a conflict of interest....' not sure why hockey should be so "special". 2. And yes club bias is a factor clearly too when the list reads like a who's who from a selection of clubs. 3. Notes may not be available on all players and polictical factors come into play regarding clubs providing these...does the club regard this player as a better player than another if they do not play seniors, has the player recently shifted clubs which creates problems also. 4. If experienced players are involved with the academy, development days and upskilling sessions and obviously get paid..why not for selections. Should not some of the fee to trial be used to pay more of these players for a better, non biased selection when there are few volunteer selectors.. ?
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Post by Fitness Test Them! on Feb 11, 2015 12:38:33 GMT 10
"U15s doing a beep test as part of trials is unnecessary".
"There is enough time in their lead up once selected to get 15 year olds to an acceptable level of fitness to compete at a national championships". Love a good debate on fitness testing. Who says it is unnecessary? If a player in his or her preparation hasn't acquired a high level of fitness by the time of a trial to represent the state at a national level, then really is he/she serious about the sport and his/her preparation? Don't make the effort to be fit for trials - don't get in the team I say!! What is the motivation to improve on the fitness later? And what is an "acceptable" level of fitness - 7 on the beep test? The junior, senior and school competitions all start after the Under 15 and Under 18 tournaments. Not going to be getting any fitness playing in those competitions and how can a state coach know what preseason fitness training is taking place at a club level. Why should valuable coaching time be given up to ensure unfit players do fitness? It is each player's own responsibility to turn up at a trial at his or her peak level of fitness. Fitness test as part of the selection procedure but then act on it. Any player not getting a benchmark level in the beep test or say 3 km time trial should not eligible for the Under 15 A or Under 18 A teams. Go to an Under 15/18 girls tournament, the strong states such as NSW and Qld pick slim, fit girls and these states win the tournaments.
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Post by peterandre on Feb 11, 2015 14:40:41 GMT 10
It would be interesting to hear what an acceptable level for a 15 year old is. Then how far do you drop the level to ensure you don't cut a gun with a hard and fast fitness bench mark. I agree players should be doing their best to present to trials at an appropriate level of fitness, I'm just saying that all teams do some sort of fitness, even if it is just small games or match practice. Considering there is time in the preparation for players to improve their level of fitness i don't believe a hard and fast rule is necessary at that age. If there is to be a level it should be low. It's not athletics; fast, fit and skinny players aren't your match winners at semis and finals at national championships. At under 15's you should still just be trying to roughly pick the best 16 kids.
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Post by Smitty on Feb 12, 2015 21:38:59 GMT 10
Some interesting reading....
Here are a few brief thoughts that I have had on the range of issues that have been raised.
1. Selector bias/favouritism: - having been on selecting panels as a coach of Victorian teams in the past, I was of the opinion that it was my reputation at stake, so I always wanted to be selecting the 16/18 players that I thought would come together to form the best team. Personally, I can't imagine why a coach would put their integrity and reputation on the line to make biased selections.
2. Fitness testing - i think its a pretty valid part of the trial process, but personally I don't think its a good idea to put a blanket rule in place where players must achieve a certain level before they will be considered. Just because a player can run all day does not mean that they will have more impact than a player who isn't as fit. Using the fitness test results in conjunction with an assessment of their technical skills, game sense, PC skills etc to differentiate between two or three players to cut/select would be the ideal in my opinion. Paul Gaudoin was never the fittest in the Kookaburras, but he more than made up for it with his knowledge and ability to be in the right place at the right time.
3. $55 to nominate and trial is quite a cost for an individual that may be cut first round. I heard that there was over 100 triallists for the U18's, which would equate to $5,500. Recognising that there are ground hire costs, maybe some of that revenue can go as a thank-you contribution to the selectors, with there being an expectation that they must attend a minimum number of club/zone matches prior to the start of the trials in order have a small database of notes on players that have nominated. This would also help in solving the issue of quality of feedback as selectors would have already seen the nominated athletes playing in the environment that they are most relaxed and comfortable in. (Not sure if this already happens, but thought that giving the selectors a few $$ for their time may help)
4. Trial numbers - 100 kids trialling for a team that will consist of 16 or 18 players is very problematic on a number of fronts. If in using the process stated about, the selectors could cut the numbers down to a final trial list of 40 athletes, they would then be able to run three very thorough trials and subsequently be able to provide those unsuccessful athletes with more detailed feedback on areas for improvement. The impetus would then be on the Zone and club coaches to be providing their athletes with feedback about what they need to do to be invited to the final trial list of 40 players. HV could even send out a State Teams Skills Inventory to all clubs that details the technical and game sense skill set that players are needing to have in order to be considered for state selection at each of the age groups. Zone/Club coaches then have the responsibility of passing these skills and information onto the kids.
5. Parents as coaches/selectors - think ill need to leave that one for another day.....
As I said at the start, just my thoughts on things. Look forward to reading a few responses.
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Post by guest on Feb 13, 2015 11:43:17 GMT 10
The $55 trial fee also included two pre-trial skill sessions which were not compulsory and were held in December and in late January. both were well subscribed. better value than previous years where a player could only get a short time at the first trial given the numbers nominating.
high quality coaches provided for both sessions and feedback from participants was very positive regarding the sessions.
to note also that lots of information now being obtained via the Academy programs which enable every player within those programs to be seen prior to trials and have feedback provided to them to help them be successful at trials.
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Post by Take pot luck. on Feb 13, 2015 13:25:08 GMT 10
For quite a few players there are no notes......They attended all academy sessions and zone challenge.....and guess what?.... No team selection. However those not drafted in academy despite trialling for it,were lucky enough to get notes via zone challenge.... And make the final trial or teams. Those in zone challenge that were in academy were not assessed at the zone challenge because presumably notes would come from the academy...so would not the selectors ask the question about seeing the notes on a player they were viewing if one presumed that the player was marked as academy? Not these ones. Explain this to a young player......ummmmm
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Post by Bev on Feb 16, 2015 11:10:26 GMT 10
It would be interesting to hear what an acceptable level for a 15 year old is. Then how far do you drop the level to ensure you don't cut a gun with a hard and fast fitness bench mark. I agree players should be doing their best to present to trials at an appropriate level of fitness, I'm just saying that all teams do some sort of fitness, even if it is just small games or match practice. Considering there is time in the preparation for players to improve their level of fitness i don't believe a hard and fast rule is necessary at that age. If there is to be a level it should be low. It's not athletics; fast, fit and skinny players aren't your match winners at semis and finals at national championships. At under 15's you should still just be trying to roughly pick the best 16 kids.
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Post by Bev on Feb 16, 2015 11:20:49 GMT 10
The reason NSW teams are so strong is the benchmarks they set for their state players not just fitness benchmarks but skills as well. The "best" player for one of there teams recently did not get picked due to failing the beep test players are given two opportunities to reach the target and if it is not reached they are not selected. Fitness benchmark for u13 beep test 9-11 min and be able to perform 10-20 push-ups non stop, u15 beep test 10-12 and perform 20-30 push-ups non stop, u18 beep test 11-13 push-ups 30 plus nonstop these benchmarks along with the skills benchmarks are why NSW are one of the best. players/parents are aware of the targets and what is expected of them. should Victoria bring in benchmarks and stick to it regardless of "who" the player is? More than half the current u15 and u18 state players would not come close to NSW benchmarks especially the fitness ones.....
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Post by Bev on Feb 16, 2015 11:43:36 GMT 10
For quite a few players there are no notes......They attended all academy sessions and zone challenge.....and guess what?.... No team selection. However those not drafted in academy despite trialling for it,were lucky enough to get notes via zone challenge.... And make the final trial or teams. Those in zone challenge that were in academy were not assessed at the zone challenge because presumably notes would come from the academy...so would not the selectors ask the question about seeing the notes on a player they were viewing if one presumed that the player was marked as academy? Not these ones. Explain this to a young player......ummmmm I find it interesting that some players who were not selected into HV academy and attended the first state trial where academy players where not allowed to attend where then selected through to final trials and some into teams ....... What was the reasoning behind the first trial? Of course your average player will stand out and perform skills that look amazing when they are trialling against lesser skilled players, if some of the Academy players that were dropped after trial two were given the chance to trial against these non academy players they also would have stood out and potentially not been cut. If you are allowing any player to nominate then the trial process must be the same across the board all players should be trialling against the best in the state for all the trials not just two, the next question is what has been gained by doing academy? Obviously players are getting regular coaching but it seems some venues have elite coaches (who select or coach state teams) and other venues have "whoever " is available some venues have given feedback prior to state trials others have not all players pay the same money however it seems some are getting better "value" for there money.
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Post by kamikaze on Feb 16, 2015 15:08:03 GMT 10
The trial process will always be contentious , all players should trial against the best players in that age group . As for feedback and coaches at Academy this is a book of worms . Yes it is true that some players received feedback prior to Trials , yes it is true that some venues appear to be more desirable than others . Compare the coaches at Southern to those attending at Footscray , those at Doncaster to those at Hawthorn . Interesting also to see that alot of the feedback received was identical for players across at least 3 venues that I am aware of , the only difference being the academy players name .
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Post by Guest on Feb 18, 2015 11:21:23 GMT 10
YES, YES, YES ^^^^ THIS. I am glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So many from the first trial making the final teams even the firsts team - ok if they were invited into Academy but couldn't do it because of VCE or location. Clearly high performers. But some were not even on the Academy radar because they performed badly in Under 15's or didn't even make the 18's teams last year at all - cut in early trial rounds. I struggled to see how some of these players stood out enough in the 2nd or 3rd trials enough to get through. Unlike those coming into the Second trial, the selectors would have them fresh in their memory - other academy players would not have been so familiar and lost in the crowd. Especially with the loss of the Academy director before the selections started. Also want to throw into the ring the following observation for discussion. There are a few players selected in teams or as emergencies who have been sanctioned by coaches at previous tournaments for their on field/off field behaviour. For example, just hypothetically, what do people think about the selection of players who choose to leave the team mid-tournament for non-medical reasons, players reported for racial vilification, for hitting a team mate, a goal keeper who leaves the ground in a huff before the final whistle blows? Should they be eligible for selection? Surely this sort of behaviour shouldn't be tolerated and the repercussions be very strong. Not suggesting life time bans but when is enough, enough?
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Post by kamikaze on Feb 19, 2015 9:33:14 GMT 10
Not sure who you are referring to there re leaving a tournament , but the others are pretty clear . Perhaps hypothetically speaking further sanctions or bans only apply if you don't play at SUHC.
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Post by oss on Feb 19, 2015 14:46:57 GMT 10
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