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Post by The Joff on Feb 14, 2017 15:02:41 GMT 10
Injured players have been included in squads for years, player proves their fitness before the tournament they go. If they don't the train-on does, doesn't effect selection. If the player is a stand out exceptions will always be made. Sure lets also dump coaches who are clearly achieving results of the highest level far out... Seriously, you clearly haven't even stopped to consider the points that I made. 1. I am well aware that this is not the first case of an injured player making a squad; the number of cases when a player has been injured THE ENTIRE selection process are fewer, however. Nevertheless, just because it has happened before does not make it right. It clearly DOES effect selection, as they are taking up a position in the squad of another player, namely the first of the "cut" players who did not make train on. When you attempt to have a transparent selection process as HV is trying to, "exceptions" simply should not occur. 2. "Results" of a coach at junior level should be secondary to the overall development of the player. The entire purpose of the HV high performance department is, after all, to produce the best players of the state. It is not, (and this may be difficult to grasp), to win each and every tournament at all age levels. It is indisputable that being exposed to a greater variety of coaches at state level is beneficial to young players and aids their development. 3. I notice that you completely missed my more subtle last point- Having the same coach each year leaves HV open to exactly the type of criticism that we are seeing on this board, namely favouritism. It is the same reason why parents shouldn't coach kids at this level, and the same reason why paid HV employees should not be able to receive payment from HV member clubs (i.e state representative team coaches also being paid PL coaches etc). It leaves room for accusations of bias and favouritism. HV is shooting itself in the foot here.
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 15:54:59 GMT 10
So well articulated. Well done 'The Joff' Something seems really wrong about the situation here - full of conflicts of interest, nepotism, bias etc. Strange to still see this occurring to such a degree, especially when there are clear guidelines set out in Member protection policies and by the Australian Sports Commision. And before people jump onboard....no, I don't have a player in this age group!
Injured players have been included in squads for years, player proves their fitness before the tournament they go. If they don't the train-on does, doesn't effect selection. If the player is a stand out exceptions will always be made. Sure lets also dump coaches who are clearly achieving results of the highest level far out... Seriously, you clearly haven't even stopped to consider the points that I made. 1. I am well aware that this is not the first case of an injured player making a squad; the number of cases when a player has been injured THE ENTIRE selection process are fewer, however. Nevertheless, just because it has happened before does not make it right. It clearly DOES effect selection, as they are taking up a position in the squad of another player, namely the first of the "cut" players who did not make train on. When you attempt to have a transparent selection process as HV is trying to, "exceptions" simply should not occur. 2. "Results" of a coach at junior level should be secondary to the overall development of the player. The entire purpose of the HV high performance department is, after all, to produce the best players of the state. It is not, (and this may be difficult to grasp), to win each and every tournament at all age levels. It is indisputable that being exposed to a greater variety of coaches at state level is beneficial to young players and aids their development. 3. I notice that you completely missed my more subtle last point- Having the same coach each year leaves HV open to exactly the type of criticism that we are seeing on this board, namely favouritism. It is the same reason why parents shouldn't coach kids at this level, and the same reason why paid HV employees should not be able to receive payment from HV member clubs (i.e state representative team coaches also being paid PL coaches etc). It leaves room for accusations of bias and favouritism. HV is shooting itself in the foot here.
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 16:20:01 GMT 10
1. If the by far best player in an age group does a hamstring before the first trial and is unavailable for all trials but will be back to 100% 6 weeks before the tournament they should never be selected?
1. Are you prioritising the development of the 17th player over the 1st player? It is a rep team not kanga cricket, best players play. At the underage level especially, there is a huge difference between the 1st and 17th player.
2. A greater variety of coaches is only beneficial if those coaches are of an appropriate standard. I don't know where you have been lately but there isn't exactly people knocking down HV's door to coach these teams, and unfortunately some of the few that do apply are not up to standard. So I guess it is disputable....
2. Winning can be considered a side effect of good player development. It takes great skill to be a poor coach with a talented group and still win a national championship without developing the players. This would also be hard to prove, so when teams win nationals people just usually assume the coach wasn't bad and did a passable job at player development.
3. HV has to take what they can get. We are a minority sport with limited options for coaching. If HV make blanket rules banning all possible people with conflicts of interest or perceptions of conflict of interest we would not have enough people of acceptable quality performing roles.
Your points are fine in theory but we live in a practical world; a small one due to the size of our sport.
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 16:23:47 GMT 10
1. If the by far best player in an age group does a hamstring before the first trial and is unavailable for all trials but will be back to 100% 6 weeks before the tournament they should never be selected?
1. Are you prioritising the development of the 17th player over the 1st player? It is a rep team not kanga cricket, best players play. At the underage level especially, there is a huge difference between the 1st and 17th player.
2. A greater variety of coaches is only beneficial if those coaches are of an appropriate standard. I don't know where you have been lately but there isn't exactly people knocking down HV's door to coach these teams, and unfortunately some of the few that do apply are not up to standard. So I guess it is disputable....
2. Winning can be considered a side effect of good player development. It takes great skill to be a poor coach with a talented group and still win a national championship without developing the players. This would also be hard to prove, so when teams win nationals people just usually assume the coach wasn't bad and did a passable job at player development.
3. HV has to take what they can get. We are a minority sport with limited options for coaching. If HV make blanket rules banning all possible people with conflicts of interest or perceptions of conflict of interest we would not have enough people of acceptable quality performing roles.
Your points are fine in theory but we live in a practical world; a small one due to the size of our sport. Fair suck of the sauce bottle, some of these players will make the Kookaburras if Rosie is coaching and his nipples hold out.
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 16:52:32 GMT 10
But the injured player in this situation is far, far, far away from being the 1st player. In fact, many of the players who were cut would easily be considered of better skills & standard. What else is at play here??
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 16:58:23 GMT 10
But the injured player in this situation is far, far, far away from being the 1st player. In fact, many of the players who were cut would easily be considered of better skills & standard. What else is at play here?? Some of these kids are on for a shock once they get in the real world. Life doesn't give so many free kicks.
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Post by Guest on Feb 14, 2017 17:06:19 GMT 10
But the injured player in this situation is far, far, far away from being the 1st player. In fact, many of the players who were cut would easily be considered of better skills & standard. What else is at play here?? If you coming this year's bottom age in both teams you have next year's blue team which will probably almost last year's U13 blue team. Don't worry about the better players who cut this year. just saying. It's about winning.
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Post by Fan of Judge Judy on Feb 14, 2017 17:08:09 GMT 10
Father of injured player is on HV board. Need I say more?? Come in anytime Judy!
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Post by Jerry Springer on Feb 14, 2017 17:28:22 GMT 10
Father of injured player is on HV board. Need I say more?? Come in anytime Judy! Throw that governance out the window. Should know better. To all those involved "if you want to test a man's character give him power". Sad
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Post by What on Feb 14, 2017 17:46:49 GMT 10
Yes player development is important and key to a stronger state BUT state teams go away to win and the side effect should be player improvement.
If you ever have anything to do with state teams you will realise that HV say "game time is not a certain as coaches can make tactial decision", in summary are told to win!
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Post by Watt on Feb 14, 2017 17:57:31 GMT 10
Yes player development is important and key to a stronger state BUT state teams go away to win and the side effect should be player improvement. If you ever have anything to do with state teams you will realise that HV say "game time is not a certain as coaches can make tactial decision", in summary are told to win! That's why you select a kid with a broken leg. Clown.
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Post by Past Parent on Feb 14, 2017 20:01:31 GMT 10
Yes player development is important and key to a stronger state BUT state teams go away to win and the side effect should be player improvement. If you ever have anything to do with state teams you will realise that HV say "game time is not a certain as coaches can make tactial decision", in summary are told to win! No. As a Parent who's child played a fair bit of State Hockey (1s Team) I feel I am well qualified to comment. Junior State Teams are about exposing kids to the National Tournament experience, equal game time is a major factor and that includes GKs. The major reason HA increased the number of teams, was to increase the number of players who would be exposed to the National Tournament experience.
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Post by guest on Feb 15, 2017 7:06:11 GMT 10
Looking at the other SSV teams already announced this year, there are lots of APS schools in the teams - Carey, Melb Grammar. Not sure how correct your information is.
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Post by Curious on Feb 15, 2017 10:14:20 GMT 10
I find it very interesting looking at the 15s state teams. On paper both Blue and White teams appear to be quite even, or Blue only very slightly ahead, but if the two teams were to face each other, i wouldn't ride the white team off, although, the coach that the blues have means that the blues should beat the whites by about 5 goals every game that goes longer than 30mins.
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Post by more than curious on Feb 15, 2017 10:33:58 GMT 10
Speaking to someone who was at every trial, there are some in the white that should definitely have been in the blue. Very interesting.
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Post by What on Feb 15, 2017 22:29:52 GMT 10
Yes player development is important and key to a stronger state BUT state teams go away to win and the side effect should be player improvement. If you ever have anything to do with state teams you will realise that HV say "game time is not a certain as coaches can make tactial decision", in summary are told to win! No. As a Parent who's child played a fair bit of State Hockey (1s Team) I feel I am well qualified to comment. Junior State Teams are about exposing kids to the National Tournament experience, equal game time is a major factor and that includes GKs. The major reason HA increased the number of teams, was to increase the number of players who would be exposed to the National Tournament experience. As someone who knows HV in and out, equal game time is a myth that parents need to let go. State teams should develop kids but ask any state coach and when it comes down it, you play your best XI for the main moments.
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Post by Watt on Feb 16, 2017 7:31:06 GMT 10
No. As a Parent who's child played a fair bit of State Hockey (1s Team) I feel I am well qualified to comment. Junior State Teams are about exposing kids to the National Tournament experience, equal game time is a major factor and that includes GKs. The major reason HA increased the number of teams, was to increase the number of players who would be exposed to the National Tournament experience. As someone who knows HV in and out, equal game time is a myth that parents need to let go. State teams should develop kids but ask any state coach and when it comes down it, you play your best XI for the main moments. That's why you select a kid with a badly broken leg too. We hear you on the no equal time.
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Post by Codes of Behaviour on Feb 16, 2017 10:08:30 GMT 10
If it is winning at all costs Then HV should revise the codes of Behaviour that are posted on HV website
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Post by Guest on Feb 16, 2017 10:21:54 GMT 10
HV are clear that it is not equal time for players, why would anyone would think any different
It is the same for JSC, so why would people expect equal time when playing for Vic
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Post by Yoda on Feb 16, 2017 10:58:36 GMT 10
Its a pity that the junior development pathway / academy has been undermined in this years Boys U15 selection process. Selecting kids who would have otherwise have been lucky to make the white team with other coaches / selectors, and not going down the U14 development team path. This is the elitism of the chosen ones that started a few years ago with this group. Hopefully HV will wake up and not allow it to go beyond to U18, 21s and AHL.
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